Double Booking?

[pharkins]

what is the story with 7/24-25? Is TBRA really giving out double booked race dates?

[Dennis Ley]

First off thanks for your question. Please allow me to ask you a couple questions. Are you saying that no other race should happen on the same date as Athens or Rosewell? What about the races in Greenville, SC or Red River in KY?

Having races on one side of the state and another on the other is giving ALL riders an opportunity to take part in an event. Remember the length of Tennessee in miles. There is very few that are on teams where everything is paid for and cost to them in not an issue, BUT for the other 99% of riders it is nice to be able to race without having the extra expense of travels and lodging.....especially for those that are beginners. Would you travel 6 hours away every weekend just to race for 30 minutes? Also take into count the travel and lodging expense.

TBRA is about promoting and growing the sport of cycling. By stepping outside the box and "trying something new" is not always a bad thing. Sometimes we have to make changes to grow. TBRA is non-basis and is here for "ALL" clubs and riders in TN.

Lets say that there is 300 licensed riders in the state and Jackson TN held a race over a weekend. They would pull in 100 riders....were are the other 200 riders? Now lets say that a race in Greeneville TN is on the same weekend. The race in Jackson TN pulls in 100 riders and Greeneville TN pulls in 150....thats 250 riders total for that weekend. Both races are a success and more TN licensed riders were able to compete. A success and improvement to the promoting the growth. Grant it some riders that race every TBRA race would compete at the race that is closer to them and not attend the race 6 hours away but the same for the other event. Promoters need to get sponsors to support their race and not solely depend on the entry fees to pay for the payouts. By obtaining the sponsorship to pay for the payout will make any race a successful one.

Again I want to thank you for your question and hope I provided you with some insight to the reasoning behind it. If you have any suggestions I encourage you to share them and provide you thoughts behind them. If there is anything else that I can do please feel free to contact me.

[Jeremy Nagoshiner]

Dennis,

Thanks for answering the question. While I disagree with your assessment, it is good to finally see a public response from the board.

First of all, your questions are ridiculous and not relevant to the question posed of you, those are not TBRA races and are not promoted by dues paying members of the association.

As a TBRA racer I have several concerns about this most recent decision:
1) This came a total surprise to most of us. For such a dramatic policy shift, shouldn't this have been more thoroughly vetted through the clubs in a more transparent manner? If it is a good idea, it should not have been done in secret.

2) There seems to be a dramatic shift that focuses on quantity of races over quality of races. If it is the position of the board that smaller less competitive fields are good for the sport, we are in trouble.

3) Your made up example is assuming the best possible scenario. A more likely scenario is that attendance at both events would suffer which is too bad for the racer who would be racing in smaller less competitive fields. It would be good for the rider that is just chasing TBRA points and upgrade points.

4. You are completely regionalizing racing in TN. Our last Cyclocross season was a great example of this.


I appreciate your willingness to serve as a board member, I would appreciate even more public discussion about these issues before the board makes secret rulings that affect all racers in the state.

Jeremy

[pharkins]

thanks for your response, dennis-both the smart alecky first part and the less ridiculous second part.

i certainly understand that the mission of TBRA should be to grow cycling. but shouldn't the mission be first to grow cycling in TN and serve the interests of TN racers, since TN racers are the ones who, ahem, pay the lion's share of the dues? i am a constituent of TBRA-in fact, over the last five years i have probably paid as many TBRA fees as anyone. and this decision will lessen my racing experience. in the 1/2 fields, the numbers are already borderline anemic. have two races in TN on the same day(not to mention the mtn bike race that you also ran over), and i could end up racing against five guys.

i understand how you might come to the conclusion that more races is better for racing, but your logic is specious. by extension, would it then be better to have races in memphis, nashville, chattanooga, and knoxville every weekend? of course we all want cycling to grow in this country, but the facts are that we don't have the numbers to support more than one race in TN on a given day. the quality of the racing, already troubled, will suffer further.

just out of curiosity, who is promoting the race that was layered on on top of the existing race?

[Kevin Freeman]

How many licensed riders are there in Tennessee? Where are they? To grow the sport of cycling we have to give new riders an opportunity to race, they can't be away from home 6-12 weekends of the year like some masters and cat 1, 2 and 3's. Cat 4's and 5's are where we all started, we were hooked, and we made cycling our hobby/sport. We need more races west of Chattanooga, we need more riders between Memphis and Nashville, we need more exposure, TV, Newspaper, and we need more opportunities to grow the sport. Lewisburg city leaders had never heard of DSG, 30 miles away, I'm working with Lewisburg, Pulaski, Fayetteville, and Sewanee to have cycling in their towns, “not if there is already a race in east Tennessee. Worry about growing the sport in Nashville and west to Memphis, the reason Knoxville, Chattanooga, Johnson city have the most licensed riders is because there is a race 1-2 hours away every weekend, if I had read the previous TBRA manual on how to grow or not grow the sport it would be titled," One race per Day in our State". It doesn't work that way and hasn't, convenience, $$$, # of opportunities to race. There will be small fields at some races, the next year there should be more, more people quit racing because of the strain on family and $$$. Promoters ultimately decide their fait, show me the Newspaper articles from Wednesday night crits, show me the news coverage, show me the fliers in the schools,” not in the bike shops", show me how spending $27,000 on a banquet helped grow the sport. By Tim not promoting his race, oh it's obvious he's afraid of competition and he's not willing to form a committee to raise money, pursue sponsors, and grow the sport. The state TT the past two years, who were the volunteers, not boy scouts, not anyone other than cyclist, what charity did he donate the proceeds too. Charles Parrish has been promoting Avery Trace for 20 years, sponsors, volunteers, you name it he has done it right and there were other races the same weekend in other states that were 250 miles away. Have you guys heard of the 250 mile rule? McMinnville, Tennessee, how do they pull off their race,” the get volunteers", not racers, they educate their community about the sport by including them. It takes time to upgrade as will it take time to grow our #'s, but the more events can only speed up this process. If your worried about the fields not being competitive enough, quit training for a while, when the state race happens there will be more than enough competition. I've promoted 12 cyclocross races in a community that has 3 licensed riders, I been racing since 1986, I've raced all over the US, Pro1,2, cat 3,4, masters, cyclocross, mountain bike, and the one thing I'm sure of is that I would have raced more over the past 25 years if I didn't have to drive as far and that there were more races.

[pharkins]

what the....

i don't know how to respond to this. was it translated from another language?

i think my favorite part is the huge rant followed by the 'trails for kids' signature.

i'm unsure where to go from here-i definitely don't feel like i've gotten a (coherent) answer to my question. and i'd still like to know who is promoting the race that was inserted on top of the existing one.

i have to say i'm a little disturbed.

patrick harkins

[Bill Parsons]

... and I'd still like to know who is promoting the race that was inserted on top of the existing one...

The Unicio County Chambers Omnium scheduled for July 24-25, 2010 is an ETJC event. Dennis Ley is the promoter.

http://www.tbra.org/raceschedule_2010.php?raceid=1810

[Tim Hall]

Wow, I appreciate the all the jabs there Kevin Freeman. I am not going to dignify those irresponsible comments with a response of my own. Best of luck to you and your leadership at TBRA.

Respectfully

Tim Hall

[Uphillgrind]

Tim, it's a sad day when the TBRA forum becomes a place for current board members to commit personal attacks on a hard working promoter, racer, former board member, and long time participant and supporter of cycling in TN. I for one think an apology is in order.

[Chris]

Due to its' vast size, Tennessee certainly has a unique set of challenges competing with other associations for racers to race their races every year. It makes it very difficult for the average guy/gal to criss cross the state every weekend to compete in TBRA races.


Years back when my daughter first started racing, I was taking her to middle TN just about every weekend to race. Previous to those years, if I am not mistaken, there were quite a few races in the Chatanooga area. Now,the trend is shifting, with the majority of the races in East TN.

In the last few years, I have been taking my daughter to more of the Carolina races, as they are a lot closer to our home. I just wasn't able to afford the hotels and gas expenses. I am sure the racers in Memphis are doing the same thing with their bordering states. It is ashamed, because we have friends in the Memphis area, who we seldomly are able to see, because they have their own year planned out with a lot of out of state races.

I understand why our racers on either end of the state choose to race outside of TBRA. But that does not leave the middle TN clubs in a good position to promote races. The middle TN clubs, I am sure are really taking a hit from this situation, losing racers to bordering states. They are probably feeling isolated, as strange as that might sound.Stuck in middle TN, with even a greater distance to travel with larger, and more competitive fields.



I was also skeptical of TBRA taking over the cross series. I was afraid that cx would lose it's " home grown " feel. For the most part, that has not happened. But the fields are bigger. The racers are able to have a good time, and generally laugh at themselves when they crash. But I have also noticed, the ones who spend four hours driving to a cx race in East TN, if they have a crash and mechanical failure, their race is over. Racers who invested a lot of money and time with the traveling, that is a big chunk of change to swallow. For sure, it is the same with any race you have to travel long distances.


I don't claim to have a solution to this problem. I guess it comes down to what everything else comes down to. Money and sponsorships to promote a race. I know TriStar Cycling has invested a lot of time and money promoting races in the Nashville area. They have all been great races, and races I was hoping that TN could call their own race. Now, Soto is not on the schedule. I don't know the first thing about how to promote a race, but I'm sure a club would be very lucky not losing any money when they promote a race.


Is there anyone who lived and raced in Texas or California? I'm sure they have faced similar challenges that Tennessee is now facing. Doesn't California have more than one "local association" ? I'd hate to see Tennessee split up their association, and I don't think that would solve our problem.


I hope this forum opens up the line of communication between the racers and TBRA Board members. I am sure the Board members want to hear our concerns, and different point of views. As it will help them make the best decisions they are able to.

In the last few years, after meeting a lot of the racers in TN, I'd like to think of all of us as friends. If I saw you on the side of the road, broke down, I 'd certainly pull over and help anyway I could.


I am sure all of us want the best for our TN racing. I think middle and West TN are struggling, and is in need of assistance with race promotion. I don't know how TBRA could help, but racing in all parts of the state are vital to the health of bike racing in TN. Is it possible that the yearly best overall awards are hurting our races ?


Perhaps, following the points structure that CX has adopted, to keep all parts of the states equal as far as travel commitments are concerned.

Again, I don't claim to have the answer, but thanks for taking the time to read.


Chris Lang




I

[Kevin Freeman]

I'm sending e-mail to every licensed rider in the state to look at this topic and the many more that are to follow, I'll be posting future TBRA agenda's on this board 2 weeks out for discussion. We all love this sport, so add your 2 cents and I'm sure we will all make the right decisions!

[Chris]

Thanks Kevin.

FM, I was not directly comparing California's market to TN at all. But I'm sure they have experienced their share of growing pains.


In reference to larger and more competitive fields for my daugher to race in. If I am able to take her to those larger, junior races I will, but last year, I was just simply unable to afford driving long distances, so I opted to stay closer to home. She still got to race about 15 times last year, but just not all in TN, and she didn't get to see her friends as much.

Remember that race agenda and customers needs are different across the board. My sitiuation is just one small tiny piece of the puzzle.

Kevin, hope this helps.

[Jonathan Kinnick]

It's difficult to really understand the TBRA directors' comments, but I think Dennis and Kevin believe that having multiple road races on the same day or weekend is a good thing and will help grow bicycling in Tennessee. Tim, who has been promoting for a very long time, obviously did not agree. There are no longer two competing events on the same weekend. You have replaced a well-established set of races with an Omnium that no one has heard of. Tim was smart and experienced enough to know that having two events on the same weekend in Tennessee would hurt both events, so he made the sacrifice for the greater sake of bicycling in Tennessee and pulled his event. Rather than split the pool of participants with a result of low attendance at both events, he cancelled his well-established event. This should be a clear sign of how strongly he feels that two competing events on a single weekend is not feasible. It is also a clear sign that he did not feel that he could reason with you and work out a mutually agreed upon solution. I can’t see any way in which this is a good situation for TBRA or for bike racing in Tennessee.

My reading of the by-laws and TBAR road rules doesn't specifically state who has authority to set the racing schedule. It would appear that TBRA has handled it according to rule 2.1.2, along with the promoters, since the beginning, and have never scheduled conflicting events on the same dates. Was there a vote of the TBRA directors on this major policy change? If not, please take a vote and let us know the result. This needs to be settled now.

I also propose that we submit a change to the TBAR Road Rules clearly stating:

"The TBRA Board of Directors, along with race promoters, will be responsible for establishing a road racing calendar. Established races will take precedence over new races. Established races also get the first opportunity to reserve the same weekend they had the previous year. Races cannot be scheduled on the same date unless TBRA and the race promoters vying for the same date are all in mutual agreement."

In the interest of making peace, having a successful event, and getting riders from Nashville and other TBRA clubs to come to the two ETJC Omniums, I would highly suggest that Dennis put Tim's race back on the calendar where it was, and find a different weekend for his second Omnium.

There is no benefit to continuing to debate this and generate conflict within the organization. Tennessee has been a positive example of how a local association should be run. Let’s do our best to uphold that reputation.

Jonathan Kinnick

[Kevin Freeman]

There are other examples of double booking this year. There could be two mountain bike events in April, one in Kentucky and one in Kingsport, any opposition to that or should we tell the promoter in East Tennessee just to run his event without TBRA. Tim's event consisted of the State TT and a criterium, he's not hosting the state TT this year so was there a full weekend of racing planned. The last thing Tim said at the meeting in December was that if he didn't have the state TT then he would not host an event that weekend. Everyone in the room heard him, we were making the road schedule when he made this commit, and so should we have just left that date open. I hope in the future TBRA will require a promoter or a club to put a deposit on there weekend at the December meeting, because we all lose when there is an open date.

April
24 White Lightning - TT III Grand Rivers, KY
25 White Lightning - XC III Grand Rivers, KY
or drive 400 miles/ 7hours or we have both races and everyone wins!

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source= ... F8&t=h&z=8

[Jonathan Kinnick]

Once again, it is extremely difficult to follow anything you are saying. I have no idea why there are Division III Mountain races in Kentucky on the TBRA calendar, and there is nothing else showing on the TBRA calendar for Cyclocross, Mountain, or Road that weekend. All of that is irrelevant, as we are talking about double booking Road races in Tennessee. And Tim's date was on the calendar. There was NOT an open date that weekend. We wouldn't be having this discussion of double booking if that weekend had been open.

There is no point in arguing, and there is no point in you being so defensive. Please read my entire post again and answer the question about the vote. There is still plenty of time to settle this peacefully and do the right thing.

Jonathan Kinnick